When is date of posting.

When is date of posting.

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I am having a dispute with HMRC about the date of posting of a final notice demanding payment.

The notice was dated 18 July giving 7 days to make payment or further proceedings would be commenced.

However the letter was not received until 26 July - a day after the final date for payment!!

Proceedings have now gone further and I am arguing with HMRC that there was no way payment could have been made in the time limit given as the demand was not recieved until after the final day for payment.

They are refusing to listen saying the demand would have been posted on the day it was issued and it is not their fault if the post was late.

I constantly receive post from HMRC over a week after it is dated however I have no "proof" that the demand was received when I say it was except for the normal date stamp that is put on all letters when received.

Does anyone know of any articles or other documents that I can use to show that HMRC post is not sent out of their office on the day it is dated but takes a few days to be processed.

Any relevant contributions gratefully received!
Simon Lever

Replies (9)

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By petersaxton
20th Nov 2006 19:31

HMRC are usually incompetent
They may say they send them on the date printed on the letter but it's not true.

They may say it's not their fault if the post is late but it is their fault. If they want a document to be received quickly they should not use an inefficient service such as the post.

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By Paul Soper
20th Nov 2006 22:32

Legal delivery
Even the courts acknowledge this, and so should HMRC, demands such as those under s19A requiring info to be produced within at least 30 days should date from the assumed date of delivery which is currently 2 days (I believe) for first class post and 5 for second class post. This is a principle which the Special Commissioners have established so seek evidence, as suggested, of when it was posted, then count on to when it can be assumed to have been delivered (now you are in the hands of the post office is actually delivered even later).

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By AnonymousUser
20th Nov 2006 17:26

Dates
The Revenue do not post letters/reminders on the date which appears on their letters. We had a situation where a reminder (dated 11th July) and a final demand (dated 18th July) for a client both arrived on the same day (29th July) which was five days after the local office had been in touch and the matter sorted out. There wasn't actually a payment due; all that had happenned was that a £250 incentive payment had been credited to the wrong year and the client was actually due a refund. This was the second similar occurrence.

You will note that this is exactly the same time as the lnotice supposedly sent out to you (or your client).

I wrote a letter of complaint and received a telephone call to apologise. During the telephone call I was told that the despatch of letters was outsourced and they were aware that there were delays occurring in the outsourcing process, in particular with regard to PAYE. The lady who telephoned me said that they had received hundreds of complaints.

I keep a careful eye on the dates on correspondence and the date of receipt and, whilst I have noted an improvement, the problem has not been fully resolved.

If it helps I would happily provide a statement confirming the above.

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By djw090
21st Nov 2006 09:46

Count from when
The problem with counting days from date of posting is that there is no reliable indication of when letters from HMRC are posted.

Yes there is a date on the letter or notice but this is not the date of posting. You only need to compare letters from HMRC with letters from other people for it to be clear that there can be a significant time lag between the letter date and when it is posted.

My observation of the post is that this lag is erratic and may depend in part on which HMRC office the letter or notice has come from.

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By NeilW
21st Nov 2006 13:17

Count backwards
If you show that your process stamps letters as they are received as a matter of course, provide staff evidence to that effect, then surely you can use the two day delivery argument in reverse state that the letter was not in fact sent until 24th July and that therefore the payment was made in good time.

And unless HMRC can come up with evidence to show when they actually posted it, then what happened on the balance of probability given the evidence?

NeilW

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By charles.underwood
22nd Nov 2006 15:06

Officer ill-informed
If the document came from Shipley then you must be dealing with someone junior. Last year, Shipley readily acknowledged that there was often a delay of up to five working days between printing and posting. I suggest that you politely but firmly tell your correspondent that his response is misinformed and that he must refer the matter to someone more senior.

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By AnonymousUser
22nd Nov 2006 19:01

I agree - post from HMRC is erratic
I agree with all the previous correspondents.

Post from HMRC takes varying times to arrive and currently a delay of a week or more is common between the date of the missive and date of receipt. Last summer, the time you are referring back to, delays of two months or more were not uncommon and in excess of 10 days usual. When I called to point this out, I was told that many people had called to complain about it.

An example of which I am aware was Class 1A payslips which were sent out in July (already late) and I have copies of several which did not arrive until the very end of July or even later. HMRC are aware of this. If your correspondence was in the same mailing process, I don't see why they should have expected it to arrive on time.

If you always date-stamp all correspondence on receipt, I believe HMRC should accept your assertion, unless they can prove otherwise, that the document arrived very late.

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By Jon Morley#1
22nd Nov 2006 23:20

Funny
Its funny how that argument works from the other side. We posted 5 sets of accounts to Companies House 5 days before the deadline but Companies House work to the delivery date (which was of course after the due date). Funny how it works both ways against us!

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By AnonymousUser
29th Nov 2006 17:24

Thanks for your postings but the situation has got to the point where the outstanding liability has been paid but not the court fees.

We are now going to court to argue that the fees should not have been incurred as there was no way the payment could have been made in the time requested and that the papers were sent to the court the day after the time limit expired.

I was hoping to have something concrete that I could show to the court that would assit my case.

Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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